Top of Their Game

The show where we delve into the minds of people making communications clearer, fairer and just plain better.

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About the podcast

Top of Their Game is a plain language podcast about making complex, high-stakes writing clear. Host Bob Milstein, a lawyer and plain language trainer, talks with experts across law, government, health, insurance and pharma about the communication problems they face, and how plain language serves readers, customers and citizens. From the ISO 24495 plain language standard to clarity in the courtroom, the clinic and the constitution, each episode explores why clear writing matters and how the best in the field get it right.

Episodes

Meet Christopher Balmford and Cinzia Theobald: plain language champions, international standard-setters, and the co-founders of In-Game Learning.
In this special episode, Christopher and Cinzia reveal how they first met, what it took to turn decades of plain language expertise into The Plain Game, and why they believe games could be the key to making workplace training more engaging and more effective.
Meet Vijayalaxmi Hegde: a writer and plain language specialist, and one of the leading voices advocating for clear communication in India.
In this episode, Vijayalaxmi shares the state of the plain language movement in India, the push to reform legal and government communication, and how AI and international standards could shape its future. It's a fascinating conversation about language, inclusion, and the power of clarity.
Meet Torunn Reksten: an advocate, lecturer, and plain language expert at the Language Council of Norway.
In this episode, Torunn reflects on her work on the Norwegian Language Act and ISO plain language standards. We also explore the roles user experience, innovation, and minority language preservation play in making Norway a global leader in clear public communication.
Meet Nadja Green: a plain language content developer, researcher, and strategist based in Johannesburg, South Africa.
In this episode, Nadja reflects on the challenges of persuading South African business and government that plain language is a strategic priority, not just a stylistic preference. She also discusses South Africa’s remarkable post-apartheid constitutional process, where plain language experts played a role in shaping one of the country’s most important documents, as well as her work helping develop the first ISO standard for plain language.
Meet Dr Anthony Fauci: a physician, scientist, and one of the most influential public health leaders of our time.
He advised 7 US presidents and shaped the national and global responses to HIV/AIDS and COVID-19. Few people have navigated crisis, uncertainty, and public scrutiny on this scale.
In this episode, Anthony reflects on a lifetime at the center of infectious disease response. And what it takes to communicate clearly when the science is evolving, the stakes are high, and trust is fragile.
Meet the Hon. Michael Kirby: former High Court justice, human rights champion, and one of Australia’s most compelling legal voices.
From shaping landmark decisions on the High Court of Australia to championing plain English long before it was fashionable, Michael shares why clarity in communication isn’t just good practice, it’s a matter of justice, fairness, and humanity. A sharp, deeply thoughtful conversation with a true giant of Australian law.
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Meet Dr. Helen Keleher: a leading voice in public health who’s spent her career tackling some of society’s most complex, and urgent, health challenges.
An Adjunct Professor at Monash University and Life Member of the Public Health Association of Australia, Helen brings deep expertise in health equity, prevention, and population health. From shaping strategy to influencing generations through her writing and teaching, her work has consistently focused on creating fairer, more effective systems.
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Meet Jamila Savoy: an emerging leader in the world of plain language advocacy.
As co-founder of Plain Language Matters, Jamila helps organizations communicate clearly. In this episode, she shares how her passion for plain language began, how she convinced the Victorian Government to invest in clarity, and the key lessons she’s learned as a leading voice for accessible, human-centered communication.
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Meet Laureate Professor Peter Doherty: Nobel Prize winner, scientific heavyweight, and master communicator.
From a discovery that transformed modern medicine to decades as a trusted public voice on pandemics, climate change, and science itself, Peter shares what it takes to communicate complex ideas with clarity, credibility, and impact. A big-brain conversation with one of the world’s best.
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Meet Dr Annetta Cheek: a true trailblazer of the plain language movement.
In this episode, Annetta shares how she discovered plain language, what it took to convince government that clarity was worth legislating for, and the long road to passing the US Plain Writing Act of 2010. It’s a powerful conversation about persistence, persuasion, and the real-world impact of writing that people can actually understand.
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Meet Prof Joe Kimble — a true legend of plain-language legal writing.
After 35 years teaching legal writing at Cooley Law School, helping draft the US Federal Rules of Evidence and Civil Procedure, and authoring three landmark books. In our very first episode, Joe shares how he found plain language, the lessons he’s learned along the way, and why clarity matters for all writers — legal or not. We couldn’t imagine a better guest to kick things off.
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Meet the host

Bob Milstein is one of In-Game Learning’s plain language experts and the voice behind Top of Their Game.

For more than 20 years, Bob has delivered the plain language training course on which The Plain Game is based, helping organizations communicate more clearly and effectively.

Alongside his work in plain language, Bob is an experienced health lawyer who has practised in Melbourne, Australia and New York City, US, and has been admitted to the New York Bar.
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It was through his legal work that Bob’s interest in plain language took hold. Time and again, he saw that the root cause of many medical negligence cases wasn’t malice or incompetence, but a simple lack of clear communication.

That realization set Bob on an ongoing journey to make language clearer, fairer and easier to understand: a journey that continues today.
Bob Milstein stands for a portrait wearing a beige blazer and light blue shirt.
Goat in the elevator waving hello as the doors open.
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Acknowledgment of Country
We acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands and waterways on which we live and work. We honor Indigenous Peoples worldwide, recognizing their enduring connection to land, culture, and story.